AbusiveChurches.org

[Guest]

Leave the gravy train? Naw, Never!

[Phil Davis]

EJT was NOT in a "no win situation". He was in an integrity-challenging situation of his own making, and he failed.

What we do in situations like these define us as a person. Sometimes doing the overwhelmingly right thing involves personal sacrifice. However, leadership demands only one response.

Sorry, Sailor, the "rock" and "hard place" were actually simply whether to be a servant or to be self-serving. His choices in this and many other situations speak for themselves.

Trying to keep it real,
Phil

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"When you sacrifice, someone benefits; if the one telling you to sacrifice is benefiting from your sacrifice, something is wrong."

[BTrue2...]

[sailor]

Good point, Phil.

That's what I like about these type of forums...a healthy exchange of ideas and opinions...we all learn something new from it!

Going back to the comment EJT made about being told prior to 1985, I see the validity in your post. He knew, and failed to act. Just like he was told reform was needed, and he failed to act.

The drydock I am currently stationed on has more integrity...

[John Cady]

...Nothing has really changed about the way the leadership handled LRD's sin. In viewing the video from the 2006 Conference, EJT in particular along with DPL & PFP were still putting the criminal on a pedestal without ever acknowledging there were grievious problems within the organization.

I sometimes think if they keep from discussing the matter, it will eventually go away; however, it won't. Not this time, not ever.

Alan, I am glad you are keeping this up because there are still folks who have left CFCMI and other abusive churches that need to know the truth.
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John Cady - CFCMI Class of 2003

[John Cady]

Today marks the sixth anniversary of the infamous message PFP sprung on the world, and caused many of us to wake up. NEVER FORGET!
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John Cady - CFCMI Class of 2003

[A Mack]

Thanks John

[John Cady]

Does anyone have a copy of the transcript of the Mother's Day speech?
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John Cady - CFCMI Class of 2003

[John Cady]

I found this waaaaaaaay near the bottom of the "Just Talking" forum, and decided to place it here for future reference. Mary, thank you for saving the transcript for us...this is a vital piece of history that will certainly help others as they decide on leaving CFCMI.

CFCMI MOTHER'S DAY ADDRESS 13 May 2001

(Peter F. Paine) ...To use a metaphor of a Catholic priest and a Catholic parishioner. If the parishioner confesses to the priest that he committed a murder, that priest can’t tell the authorities. Not because he doesn’t care or not that he doesn’t take murder serious, and not because he wants to work against the authorities or undermine an investigation, but because the confidence belongs to the parishioner not the priest. It’s the same with an attorney/client relationship, and a doctor/patient privilege, that’s confidence.

That’s the way this information came to me, bit by bit, piece by piece, little by little, in confidence, in counseling, so what did I do? I did two things based on my conclusion - One: I diligently pursued every avenue to ensure that no such activity was taking place at Christian Fellowship International, and I am absolutely confident that task was accomplished. Not that I had to stop something that was on-going, but that it didn’t exist. I was vigilant about that. And, Two: I maintained the confidence that belonged to those who spoke with me. I spoke with Pastor Davis about this, and I prayed with Pastor Davis, and in January of 1999, the year of his death, he spoke to the church. He said to the church that he had made mistakes, and he asked for forgiveness, he asked for forgiveness from those he hurt, and he asked for forgiveness from God Almighty. He said when he spoke to us in January of 1999 that he believed with all his heart that God had forgiven him. And, he asked for the forgiveness of those that he’d hurt.

I’d like to remind you that Matthew, the 6th Chapter, where we’re taught the Lord’s Prayer, the two verses that follow it, verses 14 and 15, we’re taught, in essence, that if we forgive we’ll be forgiven. And, if we refuse to forgive, we will be refused forgiveness. I’d like to share those verses with you now. Matthew 6 and 14, For if you forgive men their trespasses your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your father forgive your trespasses.

So now the challenge is: What do we do? Do we forgive, or not forgive? Do we move on, do we go forward, or do we go backwards? Now we’ve been brought into a situation where people who spoke in confidence have gone public. Those who’ve gone public have given up their confidence and we’re in a position to deal with this openly now. I want to highlight something I said before: I believe with all my heart as I stand with you today that much of what was said is true. I also believe that much of what was said is not true. It would be impossible for us to go back through the trial of eight years ago to sort out what was and wasn’t true. What is and is not true. What allegations were made that were accurate, and which ones were made that were false. I think that everyone of us listening to this, with a reasonable sense of thinking process can understand that in any trial there is a certain amount of truth, and a certain amount of untruth, that is brought forth in the form of testimony. And, I share that because it would be a mistake for us to say that everything that was brought forth in that trial was true. I don’t know, and I would suggest to you, that I will never know exactly which of it is true and which of it is not true. And, it would be a mistake for any of us to try to sort that out. I believe that with all my heart. I believe it would be a spiritual mistake and I believe it would be an actual mistake.

Let us consider some points as we pray, as God directs us as we seek to go forward - were you lied to? Did I and other church leaders told you that Pastor Davis was innocent? In good conscience, I can tell you that the answer is NO. Because I truly believed what I said. I spoke what I believed to be true. When I stood before you, and I stood before television cameras, and I stood before my family, and my friends, and I said that I believed that Pastor Davis was innocent, I meant that. Four years later after Pastor Davis’s incarceration, and I came to the personal conclusion he was guilty of some of what led to his conviction, I was bound by a confidence. Today certain situations bring us to a place where we can deal with this matter openly. Because those that owned that confidence have given it up. I respect the fact that many of you might be hearing this and saying, I would have handled it differently. I am not insensitive to that. I am reminded of a comment that was made in 1976 in a presidential debate when then Governor Carter was debating then President Ford, Governor Carter had delivered a rather eloquent attack on a decision that President Ford had made while in the White House.

I just heard a difference in the feedback, so I want to pause right here to ask, do we still have - Pastor Lantis are you still with us? (response) Loud and clear, Pastor. Fort Lauderdale? (response) Yes. Norfolk? (response) Loud and clear, Pastor. Thank you, I just heard a difference in the feedback, and wanted to make sure we hadn’t lost you.

I’m sorry, I don’t know where I was at - I’ll have to pick it up here: Governor Carter had delivered a rather eloquent attack on a decision that President Ford had made while in the White House, and indicated he would have handled things differently if he were president. When Governor Carter’s time was up, then President Ford had 60 seconds to respond. He said calmly: Well, governor, I agree with you. I would have handled it in the way you suggested you would have handled it, if, of course, I had the luxury of handling it today. But, please remember, I handled the situation in the Oval Office at the time it was brought to me, with the information I had when it was brought to me, based on the circumstances that were presented to me. And you’re suggesting to the American public how you would have handled it in light of the information you have today. I’m not saying that Governor Carter was wrong and President Ford was right. What I am saying is we have to be careful when we look at situations that happened in the past, and we decide how we would handle it based on the light (or right?) of today. To not make the mistake of understanding the decisions were made when they were made, based on the information that was present at that time.

I share that story with you in hopes that it helps you have perspective. I dealt with this situation daily; in the manner that I believed then, and I believe now was in the best interest of each of us in this ministry. Those who were saying that Pastor Davis was guilty, those who had no knowledge of his guilt, those who had spoke to me in confidence, I again want to emphasize that much of what was brought forward at the trial I believe was false, but Pastor Davis was convicted, and he went to prison. So many lies were mixed with the truth. It would be impossible to answer every accusation, and it would be a mistake to try to unravel each allegation. I just quoted for you Pastor Davis’s request for forgiveness. He’s been dead for two years now.

The question is: Do we forgive, and allow the ministry to go on? Or not? Proverbs 10 and 12 teaches us that hatred stireth up strife, but love covereth all sins. In 1st Peter 4 and 8 we read these words: And above all things have fervent(?) charity among yourselves, for charity shall cover a multitude of sins. And in the book of Acts chapter 15, verse 36 we find there were two who once worked together, and they had come to a place where they could no longer, but neither one left attacking each another. Rather, they left to continue the work that they had been commissioned to do. And we find ourselves in a place in the ministry today where some have left and felt they could no longer work in this ministry, and unfortunately, unlike the example given to us by Paul and Barnabas, we find ourselves under their continuing attack. I have no attack for them. I pray for them. As we bring this to a conclusion today, I handled this matter consistently as I’ve handled other matters in the church. I’ve never used the pulpit to discuss other people’s sins or shortcomings unless it was forced to the pulpit. There’s been no cover up. I respected the confidence of counseling consistently in this situation, as I have in others. The distinction is in this situation we was forced to the pulpit, and brought it to the ministry today.

I’m thankful for the promise that was given in Romans, the 8th chapter: That all things work together for good. I’m claiming this as working together for good. I’d like to share some scriptures with you as we close today. In Matthew 18:35: So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you. If ye from your hearts forgive not everyone his brother his trespasses - this of course is the concluding verse of the story Christ brings to us, beginning in verse 23 of Matthew chapter 18. We’re taught that we pronounce judgment on ourselves if we refuse to forgive, and we claim mercy, if we show mercy. In James chapter 2 and verse 13 we find in these words: for he shall have judgment without mercy who hath shown no mercy, and mercy rejoices against judgment. Church, I love you. I am asking that we pray and that we go forward. I’d like to end now by asking you to go to chapter 6 of Matthew, we’ll pick it up in verse 9, and continue through verse 15 - The Lord’s Prayer and the two following verses. I’d like to read it out loud together. If you have your Bibles, and you turn to Matthew 6:9 through 15, let’s read it out loud together: After this manner therefore, pray ye. Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, in earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day, our daily bread, and forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, for thine is the kingdom and the power, and the glory forever. Amen. For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

So, this brings us to a choice. What do we do? I understand this is not an easy time for each of us. But church, we’re called to do something. I believe we’re called as a ministry to share the gospel and let our light so shine before men they will see our good works and glorify our Father which is in heaven. I stand before you today as your General Pastor. And I want to say to each and every one of you that the purpose of my comments today is not to defend myself, but to help you understand the circumstances that have brought us to this point as best as I know how, to be as transparent as I can be. I respect the fact that some of you might have heard what I’ve just shared with you, and called my judgment into question. Some of you hurt, no doubt, thinking I’ve failed you as your spiritual leader. I respect that feeling, I’m not insensitive to that. And, I will tell you in good conscience that it was never my intention to cover anything up. The words I spoke I believed to be true. And, as I spoke on Wednesday night, I’ve opened myself, by way of email, because I think that is the most efficient manner possible, to any questions, comments, concerns, suggestions you have. I will respond to you throughout this week. I will include that in the State of The Church address next week. This is a matter that we’re committing to the record. That’s why I chose to do it at the same time with all four of our US congregations, so that you would hear the same thing at the same time. I respect the church leadership in each of our congregations. I came to you today as your General Pastor, to tell you I love you, I appreciate you, and I thank you for your faithfulness. I am confident as we go forward, that we will go forward together. I don’t know what is going to happen to those who have set out on a negative campaign of attack against this church. I know there are several things that they are saying that are very painful and unpleasant. But I’m not going to attack them. But I’m also not going to join them. I’m not going to go on their web site to try to respond to their questions. If they want to ask me a question, I’ll give them an answer. I’m not going to respond to attacks. It’s not my business to respond to attacks. I would have to leave the business of the ministry to respond to the attacks of all those who want to attack me. I love this ministry. And, I love you. And, I appreciate you. And, I’m not insensitive to your questions or your concerns, or your thoughts on this process. And, I stand before you as humbly as I know how. And, make myself available to you.

But my prayer is: One week from today, we can close the book of this chapter, and we can go forward to the glorious victory that God has for us.

Pastor Thomas, is there any comment that you’d like to make before we conclude today?

(Ed Thomas) Yes, first of all, Pastor Paine, to our church around the country, Pastor Paine and I stand united in this, um, this is something that has been very unpleasant for us. Both Pastor Paine and I will go on to our graves knowing what I know, knowing what we know, without ever divulging it to anyone else, because it really isn’t anyone else’s business. As Pastor Paine says, we’re having this meeting today because our hand has been forced. The leadership of this ministry has been put into question and no ministry can go forward if people don’t have confidence in the leadership. Therefore, we felt that it was very important for you to know the truth. But also to know that, it’s been very difficult, on this Mother’s Day, for Mrs. Davis, the mother of this ministry, the wife of Pastor Davis. It’s also been very difficult for Debbie and Pam, their father, who they have seen his ministry grow. So as we look at your feelings, please keep them in your prayers too. Because we’re talking about our pastor who we love very much. Pastor Paine spent a lot of time emphasizing the point that we will never deny that Pastor Davis was our founding pastor. I want to just emphasize, put my exclamation point behind that, because when I was lost, and I was on the streets at 2:30 in the morning, buying drugs, Pastor Davis took out time to share the gospel with me. He saw me saved. And, a lot of you around the world today are saved because Pastor Davis took out time to talk to me, I took out time to talk to you, and you’ve taken time to talk to others. We owe that. We need to acknowledge that. I would like to answer one accusation that has been made, that is going around. That is that at the time the activity was going on, and it’s been stated over and over that I knew about it. That is not true. What I knew was that for years that Karl Poulson and Jeff Wiedenhoeft and Bob Kinskey you men that have been here from the very beginning at Norfolk. You knew that we were tired of the accusations, we were tired of everything. I made a diligent effort to preach from the pulpit against all kinds of sins. I spent a lot of time specifically on homosexual activity and how that is wrong, it is sin in any shape or form. And, I did preach against that, and I continued openly, to say that those who practice such, aren’t saved. I meant it then and I mean it now. But I also preached it so that those who were involved could find forgiveness. And, I believe with all my heart, that everyone in this ministry who’s hand is on the plow has found that forgiveness, has found that restoration, whatever sin we’ve been brought in from. I mean that, be it drug addiction, alcoholism, be it just arrogant, self-centered lost. God’s forgiven us. And He’s placed us in this ministry to accomplish something. Our future lies in our vision of Christ in heaven. And, if we look backwards in trying to drive forward, we’re going to have an accident. Let us put our eyes on the prize of heaven, cherish what God has given us, forgive the past, and live gloriously toward the future. Love you all very much. We pray that everyone finds forgiveness; I encourage you to communicate with our General Pastor. If you’ve got anything to say, say it and get it out, get it open, get it over with, and let’s get on with it. Amen? (response from congregation) Amen. (Ed Thomas) One week, and then we’ll close this chapter, and go on to a glorious victory and we’ll hear the words - well done. God bless you, and thank you, Pastor Paine.

(Paine) Thank you Pastor Thomas. Pastor Lantis, do you have anything you’d like to say as we conclude this today?

(Dan Lantis) Twenty three years ago I gave my life and heart to Jesus Christ and he saved me. A lot of faults, a lot of failures, a lot of mistakes, Christian Fellowship ministries took me in as who I was. No one, the whole ministry in all that time. I’m so thankful for our founding general pastor, our first sister, first lady, Sister Davis, Debbie, Pam, their husbands, our leaders, grandkids. I’m 100% supportive. And I’m so thankful that in my ministry, at my congregation in San Diego, as well as an assistant pastor in Norfolk, VA. that with all my heart and soul, mind and strength. I’m so thankful to be a part of this...thank you Pastor Paine and Pastor Thomas for pouring your heart out to us. You’ve given us a clear direction, understanding, knowledge...thank you.

(Paine) Thank you, Pastor Lantis. Pastor Norelus, do you have anything you’d like to share with us?

(Rintony Norelus) I do believe, I do believe, that we, that we make mistakes sometimes, and we all do. But when we cry for forgiveness, we pray that if one of us has the heart to forgive one another. And we have scriptures to think of, as we just read, in Matthew 6. God forgive us, we accept his forgiveness, we forgive ourselves, we will fight the good fight of faith, pressing toward the high calling in Jesus Christ. We will live the rest of our life for Jesus Christ. Waiting for the day for the Lord to come. He promised that He will come. To go live with us in His heavenly kingdom which he has prepared for us. We just want to comfort one another in the Lord. God bless you, I love you Pastor.

(Paine) God Bless you, Pastor, and thank you. Church I love you, I appreciate you. Thank you for coming today. And, uh. Our work is before us. My commitment to you is to work with you, to make myself available, I want to just share with you tonight, my focus is forward. God Bless you, let us pray: God, I thank you for my brothers and my sisters. I pray that You will minister to each and every one of us in a way that will meet our needs, our hurts, our fears, our hopes, our desire for ministry. I pray Lord Jesus that you will take us forward together, unifying in faith, for your glory and the up-building of your kingdom, for that’s what we’re about, it’s not about us, it’s about serving You, and edifying you. We thank You for the privilege. And, I ask you Lord, with my brothers and sisters as witnesses, to help me to be the servant in every way that you would have me to be, to those who worship at Christian Fellowship. I thank you for the privilege to serve. I thank you in Jesus name. And the church said...(response) Amen. God bless you all. And I thank you for your time. God Bless you.

(Sounds as if Paine’s speaking without/away from the microphone) Folks, you know that my invitation is very, very sincere. I will do everything in my power throughout this week, uh, I hope you will know that, uh, I’m not asking you to come to me, uh, in anyway other than...your heart. Further, I would just remind you that my prayer is that after the 20th, one week from today, we can move on. How many are ready for that? To say, this is it, this chapter has been dealt with. It was painful...I look forward to...(audio faded out at this point)
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John Cady - CFCMI Class of 2003